Cajjy ,
the point is not missed APS is fine for USA but it`s not legal in Europe .
I belong to the Legal system of Europe,and slowly we Europeans donot need to be told what the Americans want and will have .
"That is why Ebay .com is different from Ebay .de "
The Cold War has Ended .The only nation at at this moment who looks to USA is UK and nobody else .
So my point is that APS cannot justify a Fake ? what are Cinderella`s
Private issue`s, vignetta`s, Capex`s ,Overproduction,CTO Local Issue`s and the List goes on. "REAL" outside of America
One cat states this Scott ,Sg and Mi states this and so on.First the cat must speak the same language to implyment what APS would like to be done in Europe .
Again work on the Grey Areas first ,which is to inform the people ie Catagory,
Pn i need your help.Bdog
hi bdog,
it ain't a point on whether the APS is right or not. it comes down to whether the philatelic community wants to tolerate more unidentified fakes being marketed. the APS has a sales circuit and that is their policy for the stamps sold in their circuit. as i am a member of the APS, i abide by that rule. you can do as you please, but remember, you are the seller and you are responsible for your actions. if i am in doubt to an articles pedigree, i will say so by saying "sold 'as is' ". then the risk is passed onto the buyer.
hi bdog,
it ain't a point on whether the APS is right or not. it comes down to whether the philatelic community wants to tolerate more unidentified fakes being marketed. the APS has a sales circuit and that is their policy for the stamps sold in their circuit. as i am a member of the APS, i abide by that rule. you can do as you please, but remember, you are the seller and you are responsible for your actions. if i am in doubt to an articles pedigree, i will say so by saying "sold 'as is' ". then the risk is passed onto the buyer.
amities,
cajunsr.
Cajjy ,
Sold as is, in my opinion you have doubts so why sell it .
Therefore if I say "Sold as" justifies selling fakes .
Would it not be better selling under Fakes saying at buyers Risk.
Delcampe must have a Legal reason to prevent Fakes been sold on it`s site and therefore we must help Pascal , we cannot just say Pascal Sold As is the solution.
Look under Ebay and see how many Fakes are sold daily that mentioned Sold As and mentioning Fakes,For example look at item no
14008070305.Sold in Catogory fakes and Propaganda ,No small print ,no sold as but in the MAIN Heading Fakes Thats my point No Could Be But Is.which is correct for Beginners.
By the way Cajjy thats one of mine,and Only one person has said its a Fake .I told him yes ,but in the correct Catogory and look at the FEEDBACKS,not one has given negative.
It`s a Fake in catogory Fakes,no small print
Cajjy ,
Sold as is, in my opinion you have doubts so why sell it .
Therefore if I say "Sold as" justifies selling fakes .
Would it not be better selling under Fakes saying at buyers Risk.
Delcampe must have a Legal reason to prevent Fakes been sold on it`s site and therefore we must help Pascal , we cannot just say Pascal Sold As is the solution.
Look under Ebay and see how many Fakes are sold daily that mentioned Sold As and mentioning Fakes,For example look at item no
14008070305.Sold in Catogory fakes and Propaganda ,No small print ,no sold as but in the MAIN Heading Fakes Thats my point No Could Be But Is.which is correct for Beginners.
By the way Cajjy thats one of mine,and Only one person has said its a Fake .I told him yes ,but in the correct Catogory and look at the FEEDBACKS,not one has given negative.
It`s a Fake in catogory Fakes,no small print
hi bdog,
this is one of the ww2 propaganda issues i was talking about. yes, it is a fake, probably a fake cover, but a beauty.
later gator,
cajunsr.
Cajjy,
Thanks for the discussion, lets find another topic tomorrow
As always Bdog
Ps the fakes ,locals are always beautiful
Hi everyone,
I have heard that forged stamp marking was a policy, or a recommendation in Germany, is this true? Or is it just a rumor? Can someone tell me more about this?
I have heard that forged stamp marking was a policy, or a recommendation in Germany, is this true? Or is it just a rumor? Can someone tell me more about this?
Thanks in advance.
Pat2675.
Pat ,if in doubt then send the stamp to get Expertised .
Germany is one of the worst countries for forgeries , but that is mainlly due to Economic Crisis (,from 1900- 1960)and unstable Government.
However any Country with the above conditions will also have a lot of Forgeries.
However Germany is one of the few if not the Best in the world for Stringent Control ie Befund/Attests to prove that they are Authentic ,not forgetting what these Examiners have for a COLLECTION
The enclosed Image is a Stamp with a Forged Cancellation ,Believe Me
Regards Always Bdog
Cajjy,
Thanks for the discussion, lets find another topic tomorrow
As always Bdog
Ps the fakes ,locals are always beautiful
Hi everyone,
I have heard that forged stamp marking was a policy, or a recommendation in Germany, is this true? Or is it just a rumor? Can someone tell me more about this?
I have heard that forged stamp marking was a policy, or a recommendation in Germany, is this true? Or is it just a rumor? Can someone tell me more about this?
Thanks in advance.
Pat2675.
bonjour cousin pat,
i think i know what you are talking about. their were some modern forgeries being produced in germany such as the polar flight zeppelins and such. and they were marked 'faux' or 'falsh' on the back. they look very genuine.
hey bdog,
perhaps bdog has seen these 'replicas' and knows what i am talking about. eh, 'tank'. how's my dog doin'? treat him good. i remember our scout dogs in nam, best damn soldiers we ever had.
bonjour cousin pat,
i think i know what you are talking about. their were some modern forgeries being produced in germany such as the polar flight zeppelins and such. and they were marked 'faux' or 'falsh' on the back. they look very genuine.
hey bdog,
perhaps bdog has seen these 'replicas' and knows what i am talking about. eh, 'tank'. how's my dog doin'? treat him good. i remember our scout dogs in nam, best damn soldiers we ever had.
later gators,
cajunsr.
cafe' et un beignet
Jesus , that dog is hot at the moment,I have to phone all the Lady`s in the neigbourhood I`m going out with Amigo and it`s better he stays at home.
Yep ,be very careful with the Zep`s from 1930 especially Mi 439y with FAUX covered with a cancellation stamp and from 1928 the stamps could be doctored using benzine.
Will look on the german net later ,SO WHATCH THIS SPACE
Regards Bdog hello down boy whoof whoof sometimes I think he`s gay or give me a Fag (cigarette).
bonjour cousin pat,
i think i know what you are talking about. their were some modern forgeries being produced in germany such as the polar flight zeppelins and such. and they were marked 'faux' or 'falsh' on the back. they look very genuine.
hey bdog,
perhaps bdog has seen these 'replicas' and knows what i am talking about. eh, 'tank'. how's my dog doin'? treat him good. i remember our scout dogs in nam, best damn soldiers we ever had.
later gators,
cajunsr.
cafe' et un beignet
bonjour ,
pour les curieux :
vient de paraitre sous l'égide de La FCPS.
environ 150 pages et nombreuses photos.
it is fine and good.
kenavo
bonjour ,
pour les curieux :
vient de paraitre sous l'égide de La FCPS.
environ 150 pages et nombreuses photos.
it is fine and good.
kenavo
bonsoir cousin yves,
i will see if the APS has a copy to borrow from their library. i would like to get a cdrom catalog of the dallay catalogs, what do you recommend for france and colonies?
Je verrai si le APS a une copie pour emprunter de leur bibliothèque. j'aimerais obtenir un catalogue de cdrom des catalogues de dallay, que recommandez-vous pour France et les colonies ?
We have noticed that some inexperienced collectors were buying stamps without knowing that they were not official issues. If buyers knew that the stamps were not officially issued, we believe that they might have changed their mind.
Fortunately, most of the sellers do not try to hide this information from their buyers and even if there is a slight chance that the stamps are official, they prefer saying they are not. But they all use different terms and ways to describe unofficial issues.
Therefore, what the @admin157 and myself are currently doing is to establish some standards; we ask all the sellers concerned to add the words BOGUS or FORGERY or FAKE or PRIVATE ISSUE, etc... written in capital letters in the titles. If the sellers are not sure of the origin, we also ask them to mention it in the title. This way, if we apply the same rule to all the sellers, they will all be treated equally and the buyers will know what they are buying.
However, a list of terms needs to be drawn up. Many sellers have already suggested some terms to be added to this list but inexperienced collectors will be very unlikely to understand these terms and this new regulation would be pointless.
This is why I am now asking for your help and advice.
Thank you
While I completely agree that every listing of a counterfeit, forged, copied, reprint, or whatever the appropriate term for the item should be it should be identified as such in the listing. My only comment is that Delcampe should be careful in their actions since in Banknotes I know of somel examples were certain counterfeit notes, and unauthorized issues are legitimate collector's items and bring high prices when found. One example would be a number of German Notgeld issued in the 1920 which were issued by individuals with fake city names for the purpose of selling to collectors. These notes are in German catalogs, and listed the same as the authorized issues. There is usually a notation at the beginning of the catalog, but that is it.
I believe in this instance, where a general rule is established, Delcampe should look at the intent of the seller. If an item is identified then the seller should be notified, and given the option to withdraw the item, or reclassify it. If they persist in offering this type of merchandise without identifying it then they should be blocked from selling.
At this point I would like to mention some fake polymer error notes coming out of Australia, Malaysia and Singapore. A number of these notes have been offered on eBay, and have brought good prices. They have all turned out to be polymer notes which have been doctored with chemicals to remove the ink from an area of the note, or to completely erase the front, or back of the note. According to the Australian Central bank this type of error is impossible since polymer notes go through several different inking procedures.
I mention this because I have contacted eBay concerning these notes, and have mentioned that I have also contacted the buyers. Ebay has informed me that by contacting the buyers concerning these notes I could be banned from eBay for interferring with a transaction. That should tell you a lot about their policy on fakes.
We have noticed that some inexperienced collectors were buying stamps without knowing that they were not official issues. If buyers knew that the stamps were not officially issued, we believe that they might have changed their mind.
Fortunately, most of the sellers do not try to hide this information from their buyers and even if there is a slight chance that the stamps are official, they prefer saying they are not. But they all use different terms and ways to describe unofficial issues.
Therefore, what the @admin157 and myself are currently doing is to establish some standards; we ask all the sellers concerned to add the words BOGUS or FORGERY or FAKE or PRIVATE ISSUE, etc... written in capital letters in the titles. If the sellers are not sure of the origin, we also ask them to mention it in the title. This way, if we apply the same rule to all the sellers, they will all be treated equally and the buyers will know what they are buying.
However, a list of terms needs to be drawn up. Many sellers have already suggested some terms to be added to this list but inexperienced collectors will be very unlikely to understand these terms and this new regulation would be pointless.
This is why I am now asking for your help and advice.
Thank you
good discussion here ... a further addition : have a stamp category : "historical fakes and forgeries by nation " .... including literature.
the isjp.org also offers some online l@@kups for japanese imitations ...
good discussion here ... a further addition : have a stamp category : "historical fakes and forgeries by nation " .... including literature.
the isjp.org also offers some online l@@kups for japanese imitations ...
ISJP 3399
Yes, it does seem to be a good discussion. It's a pity that Plantagetnoble and Francophile got their accounts closed. I agree with most of what they say.
But the official Terms and Conditions do now lay down standard words to be used in all the languages for any item which is to be called on Delcampe REPRODUCTION or COPY or FORGERY. These words are virtually the same in the other languages, except that in other languages "forgery" resembles our word false (thus faux in French, falso, verfalsing, fälschung, see the “Chart” 4.1.3 ). It doesn't mention that foreign grammar might demand a slightly different word, notably "fausse" in French, or falsa.
Note that your word "fake" is not acceptable. It's not so much that there is anything wrong with all the possible words, as that you can't expect everybody to recognise them in all languages. Delcampe has acted sensibly here, and it is up to us to help them to enforce this by reporting reproductions of various status which are not described with one of the permitted terms.
Yes, it does seem to be a good discussion. It's a pity that Plantagetnoble and Francophile got their accounts closed. I agree with most of what they say.
But the official Terms and Conditions do now lay down standard words to be used in all the languages for any item which is to be called on Delcampe REPRODUCTION or COPY or FORGERY. These words are virtually the same in the other languages, except that in other languages "forgery" resembles our word false (thus faux in French, falso, verfalsing, fälschung, see the “Chart” 4.1.3 ). It doesn't mention that foreign grammar might demand a slightly different word, notably "fausse" in French, or falsa.
Note that your word "fake" is not acceptable. It's not so much that there is anything wrong with all the possible words, as that you can't expect everybody to recognise them in all languages. Delcampe has acted sensibly here, and it is up to us to help them to enforce this by reporting reproductions of various status which are not described with one of the permitted terms.
Rogermo
bonjour rogermo,
whatever the issue becomes on this ever hotly debated topic, one thing is clear, the buyer must be aware of these counterfeits, esp. the novice. and if in doubt, pass it by. and inform the delcampe team. let them handle the situation from that point. as sebastien is a member of the APS, he is delegated to honor their rules and regulations. and this does cover fakes and forgeries. a sidenote, i wish to point out that nachthund was one of the last participants of this thread. he has since passed and his wisdom will be sorely missed on delcampe.
bonjour rogermo,
whatever the issue becomes on this ever hotly debated topic, one thing is clear, the buyer must be aware of these counterfeits, esp. the novice. and if in doubt, pass it by. and inform the delcampe team. let them handle the situation from that point. as sebastien is a member of the APS, he is delegated to honor their rules and regulations. and this does cover fakes and forgeries. a sidenote, i wish to point out that nachthund was one of the last participants of this thread. he has since passed and his wisdom will be sorely missed on delcampe.
amities,
cajunsr.
To avoid confusion for non-Americans :
By "passed" he means died. Nachthund est mort. Hij is dood.
bonjour rogermo,
whatever the issue becomes on this ever hotly debated topic, one thing is clear, the buyer must be aware of these counterfeits, esp. the novice. and if in doubt, pass it by. and inform the delcampe team. let them handle the situation from that point. as sebastien is a member of the APS, he is delegated to honor their rules and regulations. and this does cover fakes and forgeries. a sidenote, i wish to point out that nachthund was one of the last participants of this thread. he has since passed and his wisdom will be sorely missed on delcampe.
amities,
cajunsr.
"Counterfeits" is not one of the words permitted by delcampe Terms and Conditions, actually. You can't be too careful.
"Counterfeits" is not one of the words permitted by delcampe Terms and Conditions, actually. You can't be too careful.
Rogermo
bonsoir rogermo,
a rose is a rose is a rose by any other name. did one of your countrymen say that? can't find who said it on the internet. many words have synonyms in the english language. it is time for another addtition to the delcampe dictionary i suppose.
bonsoir rogermo,
a rose is a rose is a rose by any other name. did one of your countrymen say that? can't find who said it on the internet. many words have synonyms in the english language. it is time for another addtition to the delcampe dictionary i suppose.
amities,
cajunsr.
No, absolutely not. The delcampe dictionary needs to be kept simple with just three recognisable words. That's the whole point of it. Any fool can add lots more words from his own language, or in some cases from several languages. It is not at all helpful to do so. They have actually got it right as it is.
The other word they need to insist on, where appropriate, is FANTASY, as has been said before.
Rogermo
I think it was Shakespeare,and I think you may find it smells as sweet by any name. No longer true, as modern gardening has produced plenty with very little smell. You need them with a special name to make sure they are the old smelly kind.
No, absolutely not. The delcampe dictionary needs to be kept simple with just three recognisable words. That's the whole point of it. Any fool can add lots more words from his own language, or in some cases from several languages. It is not at all helpful to do so. They have actually got it right as it is.
The other word they need to insist on, where appropriate, is FANTASY, as has been said before.
Rogermo
I think it was Shakespeare,and I think you may find it smells as sweet by any name. No longer true, as modern gardening has produced plenty with very little smell. You need them with a special name to make sure they are the old smelly kind.
bonjour rogermo,
well, again i disagree with you and so would the u.s. postal inspection service as they call 'fake' stamps 'counterfeits'. the same for fake money. 'fantasy' or 'cinderellas' are a totally different thing. they are non-official stamps not real postage stamps. sebastien is privileged to use whatever terminology he pleases, but if he is to choose the correct ones, then they should conform to the standards of the collectors. we must also be reminded these terms may be more universal for many other items other than stamps, coins, or paper money.
bonjour rogermo,
well, again i disagree with you and so would the u.s. postal inspection service as they call 'fake' stamps 'counterfeits'. the same for fake money. 'fantasy' or 'cinderellas' are a totally different thing. they are non-official stamps not real postage stamps. sebastien is privileged to use whatever terminology he pleases, but if he is to choose the correct ones, then they should conform to the standards of the collectors. we must also be reminded these terms may be more universal for many other items other than stamps, coins, or paper money.
amities,
cajunsr.
But the whole point is that we are NOT all in the USA.
Words like "Copy" and "Reproduction" work better in foreign languages.
Even in the UK, the word "counterfeit" is used with quite a specialised meaning which makes it unsuitable for general use on delcampe. It usually refers to false money made with the intention of dishonesty spending it, not to the manufacture of relatively cheap reproductions for collectors.
The most respectable museums sell reproductions, of various antique items including coins. Nobody would call them "counterfeits". The very word suggests dishonesty. But if you do want to insist on that, then delcampe offers you the word "forgery". What is wrong with that word ? We don't really care what word the US postal inspection uses -- it might be different in Canada or Australia.
I intended the word FANTASY to be used as appropriate, that is for fantasies !
I did not say that they were the same as reproductions (of real items). They are imaginary in the first place . Fantasies do need to be distinguished by the use of that word, very similar in most languages.
Your point about the terms needing to be of universal application illustrates one reason why "counterfeit" is not suitable. Museums do not sell counterfeit statuettes. They are reproductions .
But the whole point is that we are NOT all in the USA.
Words like "Copy" and "Reproduction" work better in foreign languages.
Even in the UK, the word "counterfeit" is used with quite a specialised meaning which makes it unsuitable for general use on delcampe. It usually refers to false money made with the intention of dishonesty spending it, not to the manufacture of relatively cheap reproductions for collectors.
The most respectable museums sell reproductions, of various antique items including coins. Nobody would call them "counterfeits". The very word suggests dishonesty. But if you do want to insist on that, then delcampe offers you the word "forgery". What is wrong with that word ? We don't really care what word the US postal inspection uses -- it might be different in Canada or Australia.
I intended the word FANTASY to be used as appropriate, that is for fantasies !
I did not say that they were the same as reproductions (of real items). They are imaginary in the first place . Fantasies do need to be distinguished by the use of that word, very similar in most languages.
Your point about the terms needing to be of universal application illustrates one reason why "counterfeit" is not suitable. Museums do not sell counterfeit statuettes. They are reproductions .
Rogermo
bonsoir rogermo,
this argument simply boils down to where one lives and the adapted english learned. as i have already pointed out there are many synonyms for english words. and i am sure the same holds true for other languages. as i don't run the government in my country, i have no choice in what terminology they wish to use. or would you in your country when it comes to an official capacity. but delampe is not an official capacity and can remain very flexible.
bonsoir rogermo,
this argument simply boils down to where one lives and the adapted english learned. as i have already pointed out there are many synonyms for english words. and i am sure the same holds true for other languages. as i don't run the government in my country, i have no choice in what terminology they wish to use. or would you in your country when it comes to an official capacity. but delampe is not an official capacity and can remain very flexible.
amities,
cajunsr.
No, the point is that delcampe does not want lots of synonyms for this vital information. It wants to limit the terms used so that they are readily understandable to everyone and there is some chance of enforcing breaches of the rules in this vital area.
It is perfectly possible for Sebastien Delcampe to make such regulations, as indeed he has. This is one area where flexibility is not desirable. I'm sure you wouldn't want to buy some stamps from France only to find out afterwards that they were reproductions, but that this was stated with a very obscure French word which you did not understand.
We have noticed that some inexperienced collectors were buying stamps without knowing that they were not official issues. If buyers knew that the stamps were not officially issued, we believe that they might have changed their mind.
Fortunately, most of the sellers do not try to hide this information from their buyers and even if there is a slight chance that the stamps are official, they prefer saying they are not. But they all use different terms and ways to describe unofficial issues.
Therefore, what the @admin157 and myself are currently doing is to establish some standards; we ask all the sellers concerned to add the words BOGUS or FORGERY or FAKE or PRIVATE ISSUE, etc... written in capital letters in the titles. If the sellers are not sure of the origin, we also ask them to mention it in the title. This way, if we apply the same rule to all the sellers, they will all be treated equally and the buyers will know what they are buying.
However, a list of terms needs to be drawn up. Many sellers have already suggested some terms to be added to this list but inexperienced collectors will be very unlikely to understand these terms and this new regulation would be pointless.
This is why I am now asking for your help and advice.
Thank you
I really agree with - I come some time accross some auction on eBay and other, even some collectors contacted me if I can supply issue from Kossovo - there was some of Prahystoric, Diana, Europe - I was really in "shock" to see that people and collectors didn't knkow, that few issue with Kossovo inscription are PRIVAT issue that don't have any Postal value and CAN NOT be used on mail like due.
It was issued and printed by some "clever" people, that didn't care about reputation and collectors, by my opinion, this practice MUST be stopped in some way.
I really agree with - I come some time accross some auction on eBay and other, even some collectors contacted me if I can supply issue from Kossovo - there was some of Prahystoric, Diana, Europe - I was really in "shock" to see that people and collectors didn't knkow, that few issue with Kossovo inscription are PRIVAT issue that don't have any Postal value and CAN NOT be used on mail like due.
It was issued and printed by some "clever" people, that didn't care about reputation and collectors, by my opinion, this practice MUST be stopped in some way.
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